Chess Scotland Noticeboard

David Deary · Queen Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 98

For me how much Mathew has contributed or not to CS is irrelevant. Yes its great and good and I wouldn’t even attempt to dispute it and its very admirable. It’s a shame that some of our current Scottish GMs don’t take the view and follow his example. However, this doesn’t sell me on the point of changing nationality and shouldn't influence the decision!

There is also the current CS criteria that he simply does not meet. The criteria obviously needs changed but it is like that for a reason and it is immaterial until his Scottish ‘grandparentage’ is confirmed. Has this actually been confirmed? Are we going to the extent of birth certificates etc. or are we taking hearsay? Surely someone has confirmed this?

Furthermore, the reasons for rules of nationality is to avoid national teams turning into club teams and just capturing the world’s best players. Hence the need for the nationality criteria to stop this from occurring.

I also think allowing Mathew to play for the Scottish Championship and the Olympiad is a slap in the face to the current Scottish players who would invariably lose their place in the team. On those grounds I would not be comfortable with him playing for Scotland or for the Scottish championship.

Mathew is also in his mid/late thirties and it is only now he is seeking to change nationality. In other sports where this does occur like the examples cited earlier the distinction is that the players are much younger when they switch nationalities. Also if you were an England International cap in football you then cannot switch to play for Scotland as an International cap.

On a broader point going forward is CS’s position for the future that it will never deregister all FIDE active players who do not have a current CS membership?

Finally, no CS funds should be used for this endeavor in my view and in the instance any compensation has to be paid it should be footed by the player.

Please note I have no personal issue with Mathew but I am very uneasy with the road so many are proposing and there are many outstanding questions.
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robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

I am gonna be greedy here,

1/ Matthew has become a massively important member of "Team Junior Scotland" and we should try all legal avenues to get him SCO Fide status.

2/ Let's pay these chancers down south hee-haw and see what happens. That isn't my SNP hat I have on by the way, I simply feel we may have a fair case for this. After all, they effectively forced him out, why should they profit by their actions?

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

David,

Anyone can play in the Scottish Championship. Not everyone can be champion.

The problem has arisen essentially because the ECF see FIDE grades as a way to force membership. Both Dougie Bryson and I contacted FIDE last year when a question was raised about Chess Scotland Membership being required for a FIDE grade. It was confirmed to both of us independently that it is the National Body that has to be a member. What the individual member nations do us up to them.

There are several nations that have no membership at all. Russia and New Zealand are two that spring to mind.

The ECF have decided that you have to be a member of the ECF to be registered with FIDE. Matthew has not been an ECF member for some time. He has been a member of Chess Scotland for 5 years that I am aware of (Dick will correct me). Matthew has stated that he does not want to be considered for the Olympiad squad or Scottish Champion.

I'll be totally honest, I am not forseeing a massive influx of "refugees" from England. We are not going to change the eligibility rules to allow any Tom, Dick or Harry to change nationality. There has to be a good reason for it.

David Deary · Queen Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 98

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

A 10,000 compensation fee? Just another example of why we should leave the joke that is FIDE.

Maybe I have mis-understood the situation, but surely no-one is suggesting that Chess Scotland would even consider paying 10,000 euros to FIDE to change a players federation?!

AMcHarg · Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject:

Alan Tate · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 377 Location: Edinburgh

I have somewhat mixed feelings about this - it seems like it's coming down to a Scotland/England thing (isn't that getting a bit old?). If Matthew were Irish, would there be any problem? I wonder if there would be an issue with him playing for Scotland in this case.
It does seem a bit unfair to give someone the flag and not let them play for this country (or be eligible for the national title). I don't see much difference between Andrew Greet becoming Scottish Champion and this.
However the general idea that anyone can change federation and play for another country makes me feel uneasy, but this is perfectly within 'the rules'.

With regard to the compensation/transfer fee point, this seems completely invalid as the ECF have let Matthew go so he is essentially a 'free agent'. At least that is what common sense dictates.

AWIC · King Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 221

Stuart Blyth · King Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 209

Has someone explained why Matthew Turner can't/won't register with the ECF?
If so, apologies, and can you point me to the post?

If not, then why is this? It's an interesting/controversial matter being discussed on a noticeboard/forum, so it seems reasonable for this information to be made available.

paul roberts · Bishop Joined: 12 May 2007 Posts: 24

Matthew Turner and I both played in the european junior championship in 1993, during which time he mentioned that he was eligible to change federation to scotland, if he so wished, on account of his scottish grandparent(s). Admittedly I haven't spoke to him for a while, all I can say is that whenever our paths crossed at tounrnaments in the mid to late 90s he was polite and courteous. In my opinion, every opportunity should be made to welcome him to change federation, as it's probably a decision he's been thinking about for some time. Maybe it would be easier if he moved up here?!

I won't be able to attend the AGM to propose anything, though this debate also brings into focus issues on who is eligible to be scottish champion. In my opinion John Shaw was the real 2010 scottish champion as the actual one, Andrew Greet, has been living in scotland for a relatively short period of time. I stress, this is a personal opinion, and I fully respect the existing rules.

Maybe it would be worth considering that to be eligible to be scottish champion you should be both:

(1) resident in scotland for a minimum of 5 years
(2) to have changed your federation with fide to scotland

DMB · King Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 267

Stuart - remember you said we should go down the road of some compulsory levy from all players rather than the current voluntary CS membership scheme. Well the ECF followed your advice. Either you join the ECF or you cant play graded chess.

"If money is an issue, then find a different approach. Would a fairer, more inclusive option not simply be to introduce automatic membership for anyone playing graded chess matches, and to generate money through some kind of levy"

http://scotchess.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=1792&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

David Deary · Queen Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 98

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

This is without a doubt one of the best topics, if not the best ever topic discussed on the noticeboard. I am going to try and cool things down for a moment by mentioning flags and ancestry. When Korchnoi played against Karpov in the world title match in the Philipines his playing flag was in dispute. Korchnoi had just defected to Switzerland from the former USSR and according to Raymond Keene's disputed book of the match, the Swiss national flag, the skull and crossbones and a white flag with " I escaped" were put forward as possibles for Victor. I believe a white flag with "stateless" was eventually agreed on. Clement Freud, actor, gambler, sarcastic radio guest, restaurant critic, dug food comercial, Isle of Wight MP (deceased) had this unique brammer....

In 1978 I was on a parliamentary delegation to Japan and returned via China during the Cultural Revolution, a choice also made by young Winston Churchill, then the Conservative MP for Stretford. I was debriefed by the Minister for Information who asked if there was anything at all I would like to ask. I said: "Yes. Everything you do, you do with extreme care and precision. When I ask questions that your government does not like, my driver calls for me five minutes later than arranged. When I ask if there are any blind or handicapped children in China, I get cabbage soup for dinner.
"Now I am in your country with a colleague, than whom I am older, have been in parliament longer, have held higher positions in our respective political parties: we are both staying at the Peking Palace Hotel and his suite is bigger than mine. Why?"

The Minister, very embarrassed, finally said: "It is because Mr Churchill had a famous grandfather."

It is the only time that I have been out-grandfathered.

Robin.

Stuart Blyth · King Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 209

Dougie/David

Sorry have I missed something? Is there some obvious connection? Have I changed my mind without bothering to tell myself?

Not sure of the relevance, but I'm not aware of changing my mind on anything I wrote on that past post, to which DMB pointed us. However, I'm now reassured in the knowledge that, should I change my mind but not realise it, someone will be on hand to remind me!

ps still find it odd that a discussion like this is taking place, and the background hasn't been made available. (Were we talking about a general rule change, then maybe this wouldn't matter, but given we're talking about a specific individual and a possible rule that will always be applied on a 'case by case' basis, then it seems essential to know the background, I'd have thought) (edited to remove odd emoticons)