Chess Scotland Noticeboard

Stuart Blyth · King Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 209

I may have missed the background to this, so apologies.
Is there a reason why Matthew Turner and the others are not members of the ECF?

David Deary · Queen Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 98

I have to say I get somewhat annoyed when the rules of nationality are bent in football to the extend now that as long as your maternal grandparent lived next to someone who was once actually in Scotland you can play for the Scottish national team.

I hope we're not going down this road. Razz

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Jacqui Thomas · King Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 340

Jacqui Thomas · King Joined: 01 May 2007 Posts: 340

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

Matthew has given his time and money to ChessScotland. When I met him he was employed by a top school in England as a chess coach amongst other duties travelling on a national and international basis with them. He has supported our juniors regularly and faithfully at a national level. We should all welcome someone like Matthew enthusiastically, it is England's loss and our very fortunate gain.

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

My motion to accept Matthew at AGM has been seconded by Jacqui & Michael Hanley.

I agree this should be done on a case by case basis and in my opinion Matthew has met the requirements to fly the flag (not done enough to play for a Scottish team though - I emphasise)

Craig Pritchett · Queen Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

I certainly have no problem with any transfer by Matthew from ECF to CS ... as long as it is clear that he meets FIDE's criteria for this. But no one has made that clear yet. Does he? It's as simple as that (or, at least, after that it is "only" a question of budgetary priorities and CS resources to pay any relevant "fees").

Andrew, can you explain clearly how Matthew's application meets FIDE's criteria (with which I'm not familiar)? Moreover if Matthew qualifies for a (FIDE) transfer, then does this not also require a (prior) vote to amend the current CS regulations governing such transfers?

Matthew doesn't seem to meet any of the four current CS requirements - see the link to these posted earlier in this thread. Having "Scottish grandparents" isn't allowable under these 4 CS requirements, which claim to take FIDE criteria into account. Andrew can you also please comment on that and suggest how these might be amended to permit transfer within CS rules - assuming Matthew doesn't qualify under any of them?

There would clearly be no point in putting forward a motion at the AGM for a FIDE transfer that might simply be thrown out by FIDE as ultra vires. It also seems inappropriate to propose a transfer motion that (apparently) contradicts CS's own constitutional requirements - as they currently stand.

I have genuine confusion - please enlighten!

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

Suggested wording:
"A new category of Chess Scotland member shall be created. Members of this category will be entitled to have the code SCO in the FIDE rating list and to use the Scottish flag.
They will not be entitled to play for Scottish teams and not be entitled to obtain the title of Scottish champion.
Members shall come under this category at the discretion of the management board.
Matthew Turner will come under this category"

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

Craig,

The proposal I have received is not that Matthew Turner be accepted as a SCO member, but to amend the eligibility rules.

I have had correspondence from several members and non-members on this pointing out that in all other sports, grandparents are sufficient.

As to FIDE, to be honest they really don't care as long as they get their money. There has been several well documented cases of people changing flag on a constant basis. I should point out that much to my disgust, Scottish is not a recognised Citizenship, it is British. We have the strange situation where being British technically means you can play for any of the British nations!

I am all for considering people who want to be registered as SCO, however it has to be on a case by case basis and for me, it is what you have done. Matthew has been a real asset to us the last couple of years. How many GM's do you know that would give up their own time to coach (this is not a dig at Scottish GM's in any way. I am talking about the collective GM's world wide). I'd wager he has done for for Scottish Chess than many posters and readers of this board, which, in my opinion, makes it a moot point.

The only thing I slightly disagree with is International Selection and Scottish Championship. If we are accepting them to be part of CS and have SCO under FIDE, I think we should allow them to both play in the Scottish Championship and be invited to play in Internationals.

Here is a scenario for you. Olympiad next year. Lets say of the 6 GM'S (as I reckon Alan will have his GM by then. And no I am not kidding) only 2 can make it. Would you then Ignore another GM?

Stuart Blyth · King Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 209

I don't have enough information/knowledge of this to say whether it seems a good/bad idea. However, at first sight it seems a bit odd and potentially problematic to allow someone to 'play under' the Scottish flag but not allow them to represent that country/play in its national championships.

ps - can somebody tell me why he isn't/doesn't want to be registered with the ECF?

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

there is a 10000 euro compensation fee payable when GMs change federation
the ECF might waive this providing Matthew does not play in Olympiad against them
awaiting reply from ECF
let's just stick to my wording

AMcHarg · Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:58 am Post subject:

Craig Pritchett · Queen Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

[in response to admin's clarification only... a few posts slipped in before mine on purely financial points!!]

It sounds that the motion is therefore to extend the relevant CS criterion to include "grandparents" rather than just "parents". That's fine, as far as it goes. But you still haven't actually said whether it meets FIDE's stated criteria. There must be straightforward FIDE written detail on this somewhere (surely not even FIDE "just wants the money" on such matters). If the written FIDE criteria permit "Scottish grandparents" then there's no problem. But do they? I remain uncertain.

Matthew's problem is unusual in that he is not just a "non-national" but he also doesn't have a "residency" qualification - he clearly lives in England. The "documented" transfer cases that you refer to almost always (if not all of them) revolve around "nationals" switching allegiance to the federations of other countries where they may currently "reside" or, having changed their minds, switching back to their original national federation even if they don't go back there. Jacob Agaard has switched twice like this, fully within FIDE's rules - Denmark to Scotland (qualifying on residency) and back to Denmark (as a Danish national, though he lives in Scotland).

Is CS really sure that FIDE will allow the "grandparent" rule to apply to its definition of a national? I think it would be prudent to be certain.

I agree, by the way, that if Matthew is able to effect a transfer, he (and any others like him) should be eligible, if they wish to be, to play for Scotland in any FIDE events. Why not, indeed?

[PS - just noted Andrew has posted his "actual" motion while I was writing this. It's novel! But I doubt if it really sidesteps the real issues: i.e. whether a non-resident, non-national should be accredited for any FIDE benefit - even if it's only FIDE rating purposes - with any other FIDE federation than that of the country of which he is a bona fide "national" and / or in which he wholly "resides".]

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

Guernsey and Jersey have this rule already and it is accepted by FIDE

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

This may be a joke but I have heard that the ECF transfer fee may be equivalent to the total of annual subscriptions since he was last a member.

It will certainly be an ECF Board decision on how much compensation will be sought.