Chess Scotland Noticeboard

AWIC · King Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 221

I can’t help but feel that we are busy debating ways of alleviating symptoms rather than ways of curing the underlying disease.

Twenty odd years ago, the Scottish congress was an occasion – virtually the climax of the chess playing year. It was part holiday, part social event, and part chess competition with the championship itself being the highlight. It would be interesting to hear from people with longer memories (or indeed shorter ones) what the situation was at other times. For instance, were there always ancillary competitions, or did it just used to be the championship?

In the meantime, I think we should split the problem in two, and look separately at what I’ll arbitrarily term “social” players and “championship” players, although clearly there is overlap. If we can’t deal with one problem maybe we can sort the other.

“Social” players may be looking for a mix of enjoyable chess and decent après chess, if they are to take a week off work. If they’re not going to get that, then they’ll tend to do something else. Once some regulars stop going, so will others. It may be that the numbers are already less than critical mass, although it appears that numbers at the British Championship are holding up well. Why is that? Are there clues there?

“Championship” players on the other hand may be looking for titles or money. Some may value IM and GM norms more than that of Scottish Champion, in which case they will go abroad until the championship is strong enough. Perhaps the title of Scottish Champion doesn’t have the cachet it used to have? It would be interesting to hear from former champions what that particular title means to them? I was going to add, it would be equally interesting to hear from the never-quite-made-its if it bothered them to miss out – but then there’s not many of them. Maybe there’s something in that – virtually all the good players of the older generation won it at least once – whereas the twenty-somethings never got strong enough or don’t want it badly enough.

Possibly Alex could consider the above when framing questions for his questionnaire. I would, however, caution against expecting anything particularly meaningful. Being on the committee of my office golf club and faced with declining membership and lower entries to competitions (in particular the championship) we polled our membership. If memory serves, the response indicated that some members preferred competitions on bank holidays, whereas others definitely didn’t; some didn’t want to travel far, but other wanted to try new courses away from the Lothians, and whilst some wanted cheap golf, others wanted to pay a premium for quality. It was (and still is) a struggle to please any of the people any of the time.

My suspicion is the answer is long term – we need greater numbers playing adult chess (which may require a policy shift within Chess Scotland, and some affirmative action on maintaining club chess). However, there is also something that can be tried short term – as Ian pointed out, if the Scottish Champion doesn’t have to play any Scottish players , or even have to be Scottish – (sorry Andrew...Danny...) then why do we have to have the championships in Scotland? Howabout having them in Benidorm? Fancy topping up your tan, Alex? Smile

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

I would ask one of the co-managers of this year's British why the numbers are holding up, but I'm not talking to myself at the moment.
People are willing to travel to it. It does have more of a social feel as a result of people staying. The British copied the Scottish in having a social programme but we have stopped due to a lack of interest. When it's in the central belt people go home.

I agree that the answer is long term. Hopefully the juniors coming through will progress further. That is why I am desperate to have a strong event in Scotland - we must let them see what they should be aiming for. A mediocre Scottish Championship permeates down. THe problem exists in congresses as well - numbers are reasonable but theere is not the strength in depth of past years.

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

He-He Benidorm here we come! Now then....the format that I suggested in an earlier post to be fair is not dissimilar to the the big Spanish tourneys. The best players have excellent conditions and fight it out for regional/national titles. The aspiring amateurs/challengers/juniors get lumped into the same section where different ages,styles and strenghts make the tourney, a section that up to now recently as far as I am aware in Scotland is not common. Here is an opportunity to gather together all aspiring title-seekers within the same tournament and allow the cream to come to the top. To be fair what most of the guys who have played in Benidorm enjoy most is the sheer variety of opposition who all have an opportunity to win a prize within their respective band. Spain is a much larger country obviously than Scotland geographically and population-wise but there is roughly an average of 350 players in the sub2000 section in Benidorm with multiple senior/junior/grading prizes.......food for thought?

Robin.

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

And I obviously mean playing this format here preferably at somewhere like Aviemore.

Robin.

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

From what I have read here, there is a very good debate about the future of the national championships.
I would say however they do not address the main problem and that is getting people to play chess.
All the competitions that take place in Scotland are suffering from declining numbers, the numbers of team participating in the National team events is a prime example. The individual events have suffered from declining numbers. For example, when I first won the Nancy Elder in 1991, ther were 32 players in the tournament, this season there were 4!!

Alot of Congresses have disappeared over the years and that is also a concern. There was a time when you could attend a tournament virtually every month sometimes even more than one. This is something we do not see today!! I also know that numbers participating in club championships is also declining. Clubs are the lifeblood of Scottish Chess and this trend is worrying.

The fact is what do we do about this and this is a very difficult one to answer.

To go back to the Scottish the point is that no matter the format, players are getting more choosy about which events they will play in these days.
To Those who advocate payment for the top players, this would be fine in an ideal world but we are not in one sadly. We need the status of a sport, and until we get that we will struggle compared to our continental counterparts. We do have to raise the cultural status of chess in Scotlandand by raising it to the level of a sport would be a step in the right direction.

Craig Pritchett · Queen Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

One potentially attractive solution is to scrap the annual Scot Champs Congress and fuse it with a the British Championship Congress. So highest placed Scots in the top (and probably also the "senior and "junior") event(s) win the Scots title(s), just like the top English player in the top event currently becomes the English champion.

This would boost the attractiveness of the British Champs Congress, including in the potential eyes of a sponsor. It could be branded as run by the ECF in association with CS (subject to agreement between the two federations). There could be an agreement that the congress is run in Scotland, say at least once in five years.

Some might fear that this might lead to Scotland losing its independent status within FIDE. Frankly I think that's a complete red-herring. I think this may be win-win for chess in the British Isles as a whole.

Jim Webster's list of what still apparently seem to be the qualifyning rules for the current Scottish Champs were an eye-opener. I don't think we can ever really hope to go back to events that meet those (excellent) criteria, mainly because of the dearth of sponsorship, but also because the world's moved on and people's choices have changed so much over the last 20 years or so.

Moreover, even in the "grand" old days (and beware getting too rosy about the past!), many of our top players faced a difficult choice whether to play in the Scottish or the British (a problem that remains today).

For our top and near-top players, including top juniors, the British Championship offers plenty of scope for playing higher-rated players and norm-hunting. For juniors generally, well they'd actually have a chance of playing in distinct, self-standing, good class junior championships, which are hard to establish in Scotland alone today.

If we additionally want a good Scottish International, what about seeking to set up (particularly for our juniors) either a closed (or possibly Swiss) rapidplay international open Scottish Championships, over say 3-5 days. We could hope to obtain sponsorship for something like that. We could invite, say 3-5 "foreigners". This might be possible during Easter holidays, when University accommodation is available.

We do have a fundamental problem in Scotland, unlike in England, where, no matter where you hold the championship event, many if not most players are likely to have to travel and stay in the place. More Scots nowadays seem to want to play from home in their own patch and not travel to many of the traditional Scots holiday venues any more. This may be why the British still holds up as a viable event (though its budget is tight).

Discuss!

GN · King Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 415

AMcHarg · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject:

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

GN Wrote

Finally, something that may seem a minor point but one which, nervertheless, does make a difference for me at least - having the dates and venue confirmed 12 months in advance as happens with British would help a great deal.

I totally agree with this and have tried to work to an 18 month schedule. If Edinburgh had not been done 18 months in advance we would not have had it - told to me by Council Official.

Unfortunately when I took over the organisation again nothing positive had been done regarding a venue. This almost certainly cost us £1-2000.

I have had a few places in mind but have waited to see if the 7 day format was a success. Obviously it wasn't.

Finding an affordable venue i.e.one as cheap as possible but not a ruin is getting increasingly difficult. Local authority budget tightening makes this increasingly difficult. Even the British is considering hiring premises, something it has not done in over 25 years at least.
On that score one potential venue was looking for £5950 + VAT. Not too bad for two weeks, but that was the daily charge.

I have some people looking at potential venues in Edinburgh - on the outskirts but on a bus route. I'm awaiting developments.

Craig Pritchett · Queen Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

[i](1) Given the preponderance of non-Scottish players in the British, it would surely increase the possibility of a Scot becoming Scottish Champion without playing another Scot. Undesirable to say the least.
(2) I can't see players for whom £70 to play in the current Scottish is a consideration being willing to shell out £200 to play in the British, suggesting that any Scottish representation would be confined to the titled few (assuming they fancied a pop).
(3) Worst case scenario - what if no Scots entered? (For whatever reason - cost, appearance fee, time, distance, inclination... A not impossible scenario.) Who would become Scottish Champion?
... this could be the death knell of the Scottish altogether.[QUOTE]

... Just back after a week away - to find that my POSSIBLE option for change has been unaccountably elevated by Douglas Bryson in yesterday's Scotland on Sunday to the status of a FIRM proposal!! Read what I said carefully. For the record, it's only an option. I also believe that the three points made above don't shake it as a SOUND option that should be considered for the future. To answer these three points in turn:

1. While it's possible that the highest Scot might not meet another Scot in the British, I don't really feel that that's much of a concern. So what? The real point is to ensure that a Scottish champion proves him or herself in a strong field. Is the current Scottish championship an improvement in that regard? We don't even guarantee our "champion" a place in our Olympiad team in large part because we suspect the event won't produce a fully worthy champion (wrongly, in my own personal view, but that's a separate issue)!!

2. This point is, I think, a complete red herring. Most top Scots qualify for free entry to the British anyway and I expect if you have even 2-3 of these in a British, one of these would almost certainly win the Scottish title. Having said that, I think that CS should negotiate an option for a minimum number, say 10, "free" entries to help guarantee the event's "Scottishness". These might be linked to the current criteria for the Scottish. I can't see this being remotely a problem with business-like, media-savvy people like Adam Raouff, the current ECF president and the new ECF finance director on the "English" side of the negotiating table.

3. In reality, I doubt whether "no" Scots would ever be a likely scenario in a British championship that incorporated the Scottish championship (the current Canterbury event isn't a proper comparator as it doesn't do that). CS/ECF negotiation under 2 will held avoid this. CS should also clearly retain a right to withdraw if the new British fails to revive competition for the Scottish title. Again the people I cite above on the English side would clearly understand this. They might reasonably suggest that CS should commit to say run the event this way for, say a minimum 3 years, not least because something like that makes admirable sense to business sponsors. That seems fine to me.

So overall I can't agree that a WELL-NEGOTIATED option to integrate the Scottish in the British would be the death-knell for the Scottish. Why so pessimistic? Negotiation on a timely, business-like basis is the key ... whether you are trying to merge the Scottish into the British or trying to revive a stand-alone Scottish.

Of course, I would be more than happy if Alex MacFarlane (and/or others in CS) can "save" a home-Scottish version of the championship. And good luck in that! But CS is faced with a potentially ongoing deficit for the championship and considerable difficulty in finding a venue that works, let alone finding any commercial sponsor. Particularly if up to £1K deficits are on the annual horizon, that is a real crisis that can't go on much longer ... and puts an enormous strain on CS organisers, for whom I have the greatest sympathy.

As ever - for debate!

GN · King Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 415

For the record, I think integrating the Scottish with the British is a simply dreadful idea. Key principles for me, irrespective of exact format or venue, are that:

a) the event is in Scotland
b) the majority of players are Scottish
c) the winner is a bona fide Scot.

On this 3rd point, personally I question Andrew Greet's legitimacy in this respect - I know this has been covered in the blog in Quality Chess site and ,don't get me wrong, Andrew clearly won this year's event fair and square and I congratulate him on that. However, to be Scottish Champion, I feel 1 year residency should not be sufficient for eligibility. I would think 2 years ought to be an absolutely minimum and personally I'd prefer it to be even longer, say 5 years. When did this rule get changed I wonder?

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

I am in total agreement with GN here!!.
A national championship smust be held in the country concerned
The idea that the Scottish being held outside Scotland is a total non starter as far as I am concerned. Can you imagine the Russians having their national championships outside Russia?

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

Would there be consequences for Scotland if it integrated the Scottish with the British at FIDE Level? Not just for Scotland but for the other parts of the UK as well

Angus McDonald · King Joined: 08 Apr 2009 Posts: 162

Sounds to me that the proposal to hold the Scottish in conjunction with the British is born out of concern for organisers and costs involved in staging the Scottish in Scotland.

Since we now have an interesting suggestion to holding a shorter Scottish Championship within Scotland and 2 potentially interesting venues in Dundee and Rothesay I think it's worthwhile pursueing arranging the Scottish for 2011 as soon as practicable and that the membership get behind the event and venue selected. Both venues have attractions to me but Dundee would be my preferred choice as I know the quality of the venue and I'm sure the heating can be controlled! Smile

Swimming and Tennis for the family is an added attraction.
I also think that the shorter format with 7 rounds over 4 days would mean a smaller entry fee, less costs for organisers and participants and a real ding dong contest over all the various competitions. Also think it will attract more entries especially if there is an early decision to go ahead. One for the AGM I guess.

rgds
Angus