Chess Scotland Noticeboard

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

A hotel is a strong possibility. It has been investigated. My main concern about a hotel is that they want bums on seats, or to be more exact bodies in beds. The 4NCL and e2e4 are able to offer what they do because people stay at the hotel in question. £40 for a single room or £60 for a double is good value if you consider you are making a contribution to the congress. The players also adjourn to the bar after play. This is totally acceptable for one or two nights to most people but would this be acceptable for 8-10 nights? Many hotels would require a guarantee that we would occupy a certain number of beds. Chess Scotland could certainly not underwrite such a thing. A hotel in Stirling has a chess connection and might be prepared to take a risk but most others would not.

This debate should help to clarify what the chess players of Scotland want. It would be nice to hear from more of you.

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

Most (all?) sponsors want media attention in return for their money.

This is something we cannot guarantee in Scotland, or indeed Britain.

Even with Edinburgh City Press Office behind us last year we could not make any impact on the popular press and even the quality press were conspicuous by its absence.

In most other countries chess is seen as newsworthy and big events will get coverage in the news or sports pages as well as the chess columns.

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

I was wondering if the time of year and location the tournament was played should now be at the forefront of our thoughts. As most of you know (!) I regularly play in a large tournament in Benidorm offseason annually in November/December in a hotel. The entry for each section is massive. If we were going to go along the lines of finding a hotel venue off-season in a similar vein why don't we consider somewhere like Aviemore over the summer? One hotel chain own most of the biggies there, their summer trade is mostly made up of tourists staying for a night or two at most while touring the Highlands and the ski and snowboarding enthusiasts wont be seen for months. I feel though that in order to possibly obtain a reasonable deal from the hotel chain we would have to make it a full scale conference in order to be viable. Thoughts appreciated...

Robin.

johnmcbride · Queen Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 94

Maybe, if the hotel can offer affordable rates, entry fees are reasonable and it is a nice hotel. I should be able to sell something like that to the family.

Also, if two games are to be played in one day, they are played at weekend congress times, 4hr sessions. Any longer and for me to play, it would have to be only one game a day.

Alan Tate · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 377 Location: Edinburgh

I think Aviemore would be a fantastic place to have a tournament. One thing about having it central in Edinburgh or Glasgow is the cost in general is very high. Hopefully it might be cheaper up there!?

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

The Scottish was held in Aviemore in the late 1990's if I remember correctly. It is a good venue, not sure how cheap it would be though.

Jim Stevenson · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject:

Robin, Aviemore 1997 was more or less on the lines you suggest.

The earlier comment that 'all play alls were killing the Scottish', is a remarkably absurd rewriting of history. What long series of all play alls would that be then? Whilst it obviously refers to Troon 2006, and Cumbernauld 2007, which surely were the weakest Championships in, lets say, the last thirty odd years, but funnily enough, still much stronger on paper than the top ten scots at Hamilton 2010. Wink

Why not talk about the rather strong events such as Edinburgh 1999 with eleven scots titleholders in a field of twenty, the weakest player being 2100+, Aberdeen 2001, Edinburgh 2003, Hamilton 2004 etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves, what made the 2008 & 2009 events special, apart from the novelty of a change of format, was, doh, let me think........sponsorship money, leading to good conditions. Not the stellar field though. Without the emperors new clothes what is left to admire?

And as for providing norm chances in the current era, let's bury this red herring once and for all. The last time was the '99 championship as I mentioned above: GM title for Rowson on home soil, a terrific media story, and impressive IM norm for Berry.

Compare that to the money thrown away on importing foreign mercenaries last year,and making a big splash for one year, money which could easily have been better used to develop grass roots scottish chess over several years, and I know which one I would have more respect for if I was a potential sponsor. Crying or Very sad

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

Well said, completely agree.

Craig Pritchett · Queen Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

1. Could I suggest that CS / Alex email all CS members (with e-access on the membership records) with any eventual Scot Ch Questionnaire? Don't just rely on a paper exercise in Grangemouth.

2. Aviemore / Oban would be potentially good venues for the Scottish with a lot of quite cheap and good quality accommodation available (including self-catering flats / cottages) ... they may be the only two quality family holiday destinations that players may still be keen on in Scotland ... going to say Troon or St Andrews these days doesn't really cut it (with me anyway!) in that regard. And I suspect that there may be many who still like the idea of combining the Scottish with a "real" holiday ... and the Highlands & Islands seem the place for that these days.

3. Otherwise somewhere big, central and car-commutable (at least for central belters) such as either Glasgow, Edinburgh and maybe Stirling, might do.

4. Having the two rounds / day "problem" at Hamilton (with the early round starting far too early at 9am, even if alas administratively unavoidable) may have been an own goal ... as it meant commuting would be near impossible on those days (even trying to get to Hamilton from the wrong side of Glasgow for 9am must have been a nightmare).

5. More ... when the questionnaire comes ... though I'm not keen on an "international" Scot Ch! But a big hand all round to the organisers who had to struggle with considerable difficulties this year. There aren't easy answers.

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

And there was me thinking that Aagaard got a GM Norm last time at Hamilton!!! So there have been norms this millenium.
The event at Hamilton did provide the opportunity for IM norms.

I do agree that the norm thing is a bit of a red herring. We should be considering if we want a strong tournament. If the tournament is strong then norm chances follow automatically. Though there is the point that if it is advertised as a norm tournament you tend to get more entries.

There is a catch 22 situation as well in that people only enter when they see who else has entered and therefore a large number do not enter.

Oban was not a popular venue last time it was there. Aviemore was popular but expensive which makes me wonder in the current climate. That is not to say both should not be investigated again.

I accept Craig's idea of e-mailing all members as a good one.

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

I just received an interesting flyer from my Irish counterpart with the details of a Chess Festival in Dun Laoghaire. It also incorporates the Ladies Championships.

The following objectives interested me

- Norm Tournaments for promising players
- Training Opportunities for Irish Teams and Junior players

I look back some of the comments posted previously bemoaning the lack of titled players coming through in Scotland, followed very quickly by the comments about the lack of opportunities in Scotland yet here we are trying to provide these opportunities.

I had suggested that the Scottish be used as a training tournament for the Glorney / Faber and Olympiad teams. I would go further and say that anyone thinking of selection for any of the Adult or Junior tournaments should be playing in the national championships (obviously there are circumstances where this is not possible).

I don't believe the creation of norm chances is a red herring, I agree with Alex in that it is a strong tournament that creates these norms. Had we had more IM's in Edinburgh and less GM's we would have created quite a few norms. Had Iain Gourley not had a really unkind (but forced) draw in the final round, he would have had an IM norm. I don't think people realise how close some of the players have come.

Like Alex has said, he is keen to find out everyones view on the Scottish and not the Vocal ones on this board (of which I count myself!) and from there we will hopefully move the Scottish to the next level

Jim Stevenson · Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject:

Lol. Thanks Alex, I'm happy to stand corrected on Jacob's norm. ( a moot point: was he actually a Scotsman at the time though, given that he finished with the most points at Oban the next year, but wasn't eligible to be champion?. But point taken.) Indeed this just illustrates that the closed format was still capable of producing norms in recent times.

Without wishing to appear xenophobic, but why would we want to use our national championship and scarce resources to promote norms for foreigners, or provide them with the bulk of our prizemoney, as happened last year, when our own players are in dire need?.

Let's be clear. There were many reasons, some better than others, why the Scottish congress ( not just the championship by any means) was poorly supported a few years ago. If I may say a word in praise of the organisers, it would have been much worse without their tireless efforts Smile

However, the all-play-all set up which was essentially forced upon the organisers at the last minute was simply due to the overall lack of players, I don't see how it would have been better to create one large open in 2007 for example. Perhaps it would have even discouraged what few players there were.

I was sadly unable to participate in 2008/2009, and could only look on approvingly from the sidelines. There is absolutely nothing wrong in principle with revamping the format. Just be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater to use a quaint phrase.

As I see it the problem was dressing it up as a genuinely strong, attractive event, hoping that foreign input would provide norms. In 2008/09 it was attractive, but that was due to the sponsorship and conditions, not because of the format.

Bear in mind, as has been stated above, that norms are certainly not facilitated by bringing in a few costly stars, they are created by local strength in depth at a tournament, as Edinburgh 1999 and Hamilton 2004 demonstrated. If Rowson, Berry and Aagaard had done a bit too much patzer bashing in the early rounds of an open format, perhaps they too, like Ian Gourlay last year, would have fallen just short , despite their best efforts.

So I would argue that the best way to provide norms is in a strong closed event. There is a world of difference between an apparent 'near miss' of a norm, and the rarity of a Scots player actually achieving one.

As Joe said earlier, norm possibilities are a nice selling point and a pleasant bonus, but their unrealistic pursuit can never be a justification for devaluing our venerable national championship.

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

May I suggest a possibility for consideration as to the format of the championships. I am not convinced by the "open" approach to the top section of the championships. I feel there should be a restriction on the minimum grade required to enter the championship proper. Of course we want to see our most promising juniors improving by playing against experienced and tougher opposition but often too large a grade difference can have the wrong result for their game. Also, from the higher graded players viewpoint there is a chance of losing a stash of grading points to their much lower rated opponent as well as considerably lowering their own average grade of the persons they play. How about this...we restrict the Scottish championship proper to players graded 2000 and above. Players below this could be offered the opportunity at congresses throughout the season to gain a place as well. We have one other section with everyone else in it restricted to players graded below 2000. This would include the senior championship, boys and girls championships plus multiple grading prizes according to entries received. Some of the seniors,boys and girls would of course qualify automatically for the over 2000 section so that has to be considered. By dividing the championships into two sections the best Scottish players in the Championship proper will be playing players of a grade within touch of their own with no fear of having a disastorous result or two along the way. In the second section even relatively lower graded players, (particularly improving juniors!) will still have an opportunity to play others much higher graded than themselves. I am undecided about foreign GM/IM class players entering the top section.

Robin.

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

Not a bad idea, for sure the top section needs to have a minimum grading limit. This year the difference between the top seed and bottom seed was over 1100 points, this is far too much.

I don't think the top event necessarily has to be an all-play-all. I would suggest that the top 18 Scottish players should be invited to play in order of Scottish Rating, with a further two places reserved for the strongest Juniors (These could be decided by selectors or by staging some event e.g Boys and Girls Championship which should never have been abolished!) If a player does not want to take part the place is offered to the next on the rating list and so on. That way we hopefully get a really strong top section, which would most likely provide norm opportunities (If not GM then certainly IM).

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

It seems strange to me that the 2010 Scottish Champion, Andrew Greet, does not want to play in the Olympiad team.

I have been told that the qualification rules for playing in the Olympiad team are different to those for entering the Championship. This is frustrating for the team as we need new players.

Why can't the qualifying rules be identical ?

Can Jacob too be Scottish Champion but represent Denmark in the Olympiad ? Doesn't seem right