Chess Scotland Noticeboard

DMB · King Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 267

http://sport.caledonianmercury.com/2010/07/17/endgames-and-economics-at-the-scottish-chess-championships/00480

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

Interesting article.

I think the main problem this year was the two rounds a day and in particular the 9am starts.

I also think the format of the event needs to be looked at. I don't think it is right to decide the Scottish Champion in an event where non-Scottish players are playing.

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

For financial reasons the 7 day format had to be tried. It has proved unpopular here although it is frequently used on the continent.

I will be conducting a survey at Grangemouth and am also trying to come up with questions with a suitable format for this forum.

The nine rounds are necessary for title norms.
A minimum 5 hour session is necessary for title norms.
Titled players are necessary for title norms.
I give these three facts without comment.

It has often been suggested that a 10 player all-play-all could be held in Edinburgh Chess Club to produce the Champion. I do not believe the finances add up for such an event. With even a £300 first prize and no appearance fees we are talking about an entry fee in excess of £100 and that is if all entrants pay!!

johnmcbride · Queen Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 94

Two potential 10 hour chess games in one day and a 9am start ruined it for me. Added to that the cost of entry, petrol and accommodation at a location that could not be justified as a holiday.

If I drove instead, I would have had to have added another 2 an a bit hours to the chess day and petrol would have cost too much. Basically, hundreds of pounds and time that I could not afford to waste.

The financial realities have yet to hit most people. Many working people (apart from the wealthy) are going to have less to spend on leisure as the course of this parliament goes on. There are lots of hidden small print in the budget.

Just an idea, some tournaments work well without prize money.
http://www.e2e4.org.uk/international/2010/Uxbridge_Aug/index.htm

I am sure people would have other views, but, a 10 player all-play-all could be held in Edinburgh Chess Club, with minimal entry fees to cover expenses. The real prize being Scottish Champion. The worry about getting norms should be put to one side, as very few Scottish championships have had norm opportunities and fewer still achieved.

AMcHarg · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject:

What about having qualification events for an All-Play-All Scottish Championship Open (10 players). I can envisage it working similar to how the ATP Tennis Circuit qualification for Slams works:

For Congresses:

-> Open 1st: 300 Points, 2nd: 150 Points, 3rd: 75 Points
-> Challenger 1st: 100 Points, 2nd: 50 Points, 3rd: 25 Points
-> Major 1st: 25 Points, 2nd: 12 Points, 3rd: 6 Points
-> Minor - zero points

- Add up all the points for each player over the season and you get a list of the top players to play in the Scottish Championship.

- The current Champion gets entry by default.

- Only Scottish players or those who currently conform to the current Scottish Champion requirements may play.

As a side to the above you could run a normal-styled Congress for everybody else.

Is the above similar to the London Chess Classic last year?

The reason I didn't play in the Scottish Championship this year was only to do with work commitments and finances. I would have loved to play and will hopefully do next year.

Just some thoughts.
A

Cool

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

Whatever format you try there is always going to be a problem with players having the time to play in the event in anycase.
The last Scottish Championship to have the championship as an all play all was the one in Cumbernauld in 2007.
The players these days have less free time because of working commitments and the population has to be more mobile as far as work goes
I did not enjoy the event in Edinburgh las year because I was spending about 5 hours per day travelling on top of a 6 hour game. It is becoming more and more difficult these days to get the right conditions for our championships.
I had to take 2 byes because I am not fit enough because of my disabilities to play two five hour games in one day, and I needed hard practice before the World Blind championship in Belgrade next month. We should be grateful that there is still a championship organised giving the difficulties organising one

Alan Tate · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 377 Location: Edinburgh

I imagine that most reasons for not playing are something like:

2 rounds a day = staying over night at least twice + general decline in play
(probably lease was for a week?)

Too hard to get to

A week of facing c3 Sicilians and London Systems

Not enough titled players = less players chasing norms =
weaker field = totally unrealistic chance of norms, in fact more likely loss of rating points

It's all been said before and I'm not criticising anyone. If there is not enough money to hold a worthwhile event is it worthwhile holding an event at all (I wasn't there so don't really know how it was) ?

10 player all-play-all in Edinburgh Chess Club. No prizes (who needs a prize you have rating points/norms/title of Scottish Champion to play for, if not just for the enjoyment of chess itself)

Entry fee could be staggered according to rating, for example
GMs free + accom
IMs free
2200-2300 £200
2100-2200 £250

Sort out local accommodation for a small fee (there must be 5 people in Edinburgh who could help).

AMcHarg · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject:

Alan Tate · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 377 Location: Edinburgh

Yes you're right Andrew, the GMs and IMs would need a fee of some sort too. That's why the entry fee is high for the rest Wink

This is a standard amount for all-play-all tournaments. I'm sure if you worked down the grading list there would be 4 or 5 who would pay that much..

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

It is a bit unrealistic to suggest such fees especially in times of an economic downturn.

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

For those advocating a 10 play all play all, I'd invite you to check out the Scottish Championships prior to the changes that were made for Glasgow.

It is not a pretty site.

Alex is working hard on a survey so that he can get a sample of as many people as he can on how to play it.

For what it is worth, I'm going to add in my own tuppence worth and also give you a little insite as to what we have been up to this year (the full story will come out in the Exec Dir report).

We have a couple of juniors who are the on the cusp of getting norms. From memory I believe Andrew Green came close to one last year and for much of the Scottish, Andrew McClement was tracking close to a norm.

These 2 along with a few others are very capable of going on and gaining their IM norms and title, what opportunities do we have for them in Scotland?

The Edinburgh CC Fide Open is an excellent event, however it does not attract players with titles which is essential for norm creation. The only event we currently have is the Scottish Championship.

I know Alex contacted all the titled players and invited them to play, from GM down to WFM, Neil, John and Colin were the only ones to play out of the 25 titled players we have. If this is the response we are going to get then we have to look abroad for GM's, IM's and FM's to give us the requite number of titled players. Alex could have had more had we been able to secure accommodation.

So from my point of view, the 9 round Open Scottish needs to be maintained to give our promising juniors a way of attaining norms.

JR · King Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 447 Location: Edinburgh

Surely the primary objective of the Scottish Championships is to produce a Scottish Champion, not to provide norm opportunities for players. If norms are available then that is a bonus of course. The title of Scottish champion is not really very meaningful when the field is of mixed nationality.

When was the last time that somebody actually achieved a norm from the Scottish Championships anyway? I remember Rowson gaining the GM title and possibly Berry achieving an IM norm, but that was probably about 10 years ago now.

I think the best format would be to have an all-play all or to have say the top 18 players in Scotland. The event in Hamilton in 2004 was the pefect example where almost all of Scotlands top players were competing for the title. Players who do not get a place in the top event can compete in an open, which might also be very strong depending on international interest.

Of course this can only work if Scotlands top players are willing to compete and as Ive said before a way to ensure this is to put Olympiad places on the line. The days of The Olympiad team selecting themselves has to end.

Alex McFarlane · King Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Posts: 413

In an ideal world all the top Scottish players would enter and we would satisfy both criteria - a real champion and a norm bearing event.

However we don't have an ideal world.

My strong belief is that many of the top players will not enter without financial inducement.

Last year Iain Gourlay won and was rightly declared and perceived by all to be Scottish Champion. Two years before Andy Muir won a relatively weak All-Play-All restricted to Scottish players. There were many (unjustified?) comments that he was champion by default and wasn't a real champion. Which is the better situation?

It is also unreasonable to expect all the top players to compete in an Olympiad year, much as I would like to make it a precondition of selection. But holidays for some are limited and they cannot compete in both. Indeed the top two players were at work in the mornings when they didn't have games.

Is Joe right to demand a 'true' Scottish Champion rather than promote the game for our juniors? It is a very valid view point. But then so is the contrary. We have an aging Olympiad team. We need fresh blood coming through and we need to provide opportunity and stimulus for them within a limited budget. An Open Scottish does this.

Ideally we should do both and with a £50,000 budget I could organise a closed Scottish and an Open. That figure is not plucked from the air but represents realistic costings.
Alan suggests local players should put up others. Again this is a possibility but there are few people willing to put up a relative stranger for 10 days or so, a weekend perhaps, but family pressure goes against volunteering for this length of time.

I did ask for comments and I appreciate those made. They don't actually differ too much from my own desires. Unfortunately I have to work in the real world and I'm afraid that puts limitations on what can be achieved.

Last year was exceptional. The likelihood of a similar event is regrettably remote.

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

Alex

I take exception to your comments about myself winning the 2007 Scottish Championships. I can accept that the championships were relatively weak but at least it was a pure Scottish Championships limited to Scottish players. I can only beat the players put in front of me. Who else deserved to be champion that year ?

Iain Gourlay is also entitled to be the true Scottish Champion in 2009 as he won according to the rules of the competion. He deserved to win.Who else deserved to be champion that year ?

An all play all with only Scottish players is more likely to produce fair results than a Swiss with foreigners.

Let's take the following example: in a swiss, 2 Scottish players A & B both have 6/8 . In round 9 :Player A is drawn against foreign GM and loses while Player B draws with weak Scottish player and is declared Scottish champion. Is that fair ?

Alan Tate · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 377 Location: Edinburgh

In my eyes the title of Scottish Champion is similar to that of the Fide World Champion compared to the Classical World Champion: It's kind of scoffed at and doesn't really mean anything.

In the last x years has the strongest player in Scotland won? No, in fact they have mostly been pretty random... But, all-play-alls seems to be more likely to produce a true winner.

So the GMs won't play without cash, that seems to be a fact. Nothing wrong with that - I'm sure they had to spend a lot of money to get their titles and ratings. Alex, what sort of entry fee would be needed to make a decent event, open or otherwise?