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Playing Strength in Olympiad Teams
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AWIC
King


Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel Rocks wrote:
Andrew,

The Fide System is completely different to the Chess Scotland system.


Is it? The Chess Scotland system typically uses a K-factor of 26.66 recurring - less if you play more than 30 games. The problem you describe seems more a result of a relatively low number of FIDE games being played - if you were 1500 on the CS list and played 9 games at 2100 level you would gain about 170 points. CS does use the "200 up rule" however, plus junior additions, but as I understand it the systems are pretty similar.

Paul Denham wrote:
Generally grade will be genuine and reflect strength - but not always and I think John D has made it clear that there is something fishy going on with the games/players he has highlighted.

PD


I don't think there is anything particularly fishy going on with the games John has described. Some FIDE ratings are inflated due to the practice (inter alia) of treating unrated players as 2200 (or whatever the minimum rating was at that time). As Heather points out, when these players play "properly rated" players they will tend to lose points. This will take time to filter through the system - at a handful of games every 2 years this process will not be quick. One benefit of the minimum rating dropping (other than the entirely co-incidental replenishment of FIDE coffers) is that fewer players will be the beneficiary of an artificial ratings boost.

John's issue would appear to be (if I understand it correctly) that the subjectively best team is not being selected (with subsequent fall-out); one contributing factor is some players have artificially high ratings (and may be guarding them somewhat jealously).
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John_Dempsey
Queen


Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things I like about this noticeboard is that those who respond generally do so in a thoughtful manner. What you (AWIC) have said is true. It is not the games that are fishy. Paul is right, Stephen is right, as are Daniel and Heather. The FIDE gradings are askew, (in my opinion badly so) when you examine the chess played. However, the main thrust of what I am trying to bring to Scottish players attention lies in the fact that the strongest players here no longer represent their country, and most importantly, why that is the case. There is a valuable lesson in this for us as a chess playing nation.

I was aware that there had been some kind of major conflict in recent years on these islands. But, whilst I commiserated at the perceived unfairness at work, still, it was something for those involved to work out. It held little specific interest for anyone in Scotland, other than a very weak team being in the same tournaments sometimes and that no one likes unfairness.

But my attention suddenly moved from being vaguely interested to being completely focused upon their difficulties when three (3) key phrases came together. These were; faction fight; proxy war; recruitment of large numbers of kids from a school to win this this proxy war. How dreadfully familiar concepts.

These people have had the total war which we have somehow avoided.

The 'winners' don't exist. There is nothing left but the ruins of the organised chess which was not that dissimilar to our own. Selection was transparent. Democracy ruled. Yes they were much smaller than we were but it would have been easy to see the parallels. Small, yes, but worthy.

The fallout from that war still continues. The Federation has been badly, badly,weakened. Many adult players will not be a part of it. The juniors who were the tools to 'win' this war have almost entirely stopped playing.

When these people pressed the buttons that could only result in mutually assured destruction they could not have given any thought to what would be left. Perhaps it was all about 'winning' at that stage. Who can say for certain. But the result is certain. The word 'debris' is what I would use to describe what they are picking through. If you doubt this, then play through the game given earlier on this thread, go to Chesslab database and go through the games this team were able to produce at the World Chess Olympiad in 2008. Then compare these games with the ones before this war. If you are unclear as to when this happened then let the caliber of chess produced before and after be your guide. It is clear as crystal. Take a little time out to do this, and the lesson will go deep: it has for me.

We have been lucky, let's stay lucky.

Wishing each and every one of you the very best,

John
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admin
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John.

I could not agree more. We have been lucky, we managed to get through our Crisis without the MAD button being pressed. Looking at federations closer to home, they have not been so lucky.

I came back from the AGM with one thought going through my head "What have I done..." I was genuinely shocked at what had happened.

I think this year is going reasonably well, and I have to be honest, the Directors who have been there for years are quite instrumental in that. In fact, I'm happy to go on record to say thanks to Mac, Dougie and Ken as well as thanking Donald Wilson who's advice I have found invaluable this year.

We have a few problems to iron out, the Scottish being one of them, but in Alex's more than capable hands I am not overly concerned about it. In the absence of a marketing director I am actively trying to secure sponsorship for the Scottish. I have a couple of leads at the moment (if anyone out there has a serious suggestion, please contact me) and I am following them up.

The huge in fighting we have had seems to have simmered down over the last couple of years and I am very greatful for that. I have seen people who a couple of years ago, could not bear to be in the same room as each other working side by side, foes working together on committee's and listening to each other. People being constructively critical of something and the critisim being taken on board.

We are turning the corner, that is obvious, but we are not there yet. There is still much work to done. We do not live in a utopia, We will not ever have everyone getting on with everyone else, that would be folly to even consider it. But we are well on the way to a nice balance.

I belive we are facing a dual challenge now. The first is funding and lack thereof. This is a tricky one to resolve. The second is apathy. We are happy to let the same people do the smae things time and time again. Look at the Arbiters list, look at the people organising torunaments, league controllers. It is the same people time and time again.

Here is the wake up call. The "Time to smell the coffee" moment. Many of our Arbiters, Organisers etc are getting older, there is no stampede of helpers there to replace them. As they retire we are going to lose tournaments. We badly need people to step up and learn how to do these roles.

Anyway, enough rambling from me this morning. Hope you all have a pleasant day and I apologise for any spelling mistakes in this, my work computer does not allow me to install Firefox which has a wonderful inbuilt spellchecker Wink
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Mike Scott
King


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Admin,
A complete aside but can I just ask "Scotsman shield - any progress?"
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Paul Denham
King


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 340
Location: East Kilbride

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,

Might have a lead for you re the Scottish & sponsorship.

Drop me a note.

PD
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Graeme Forbes
Queen


Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 133
Location: I'm back in killie for anyone wanting to know.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:
John.

I could not agree more. We have been lucky, we managed to get through our Crisis without the MAD button being pressed. Looking at federations closer to home, they have not been so lucky.

I came back from the AGM with one thought going through my head "What have I done..." I was genuinely shocked at what had happened.

I think this year is going reasonably well, and I have to be honest, the Directors who have been there for years are quite instrumental in that. In fact, I'm happy to go on record to say thanks to Mac, Dougie and Ken as well as thanking Donald Wilson who's advice I have found invaluable this year.

We have a few problems to iron out, the Scottish being one of them, but in Alex's more than capable hands I am not overly concerned about it. In the absence of a marketing director I am actively trying to secure sponsorship for the Scottish. I have a couple of leads at the moment (if anyone out there has a serious suggestion, please contact me) and I am following them up.

The huge in fighting we have had seems to have simmered down over the last couple of years and I am very greatful for that. I have seen people who a couple of years ago, could not bear to be in the same room as each other working side by side, foes working together on committee's and listening to each other. People being constructively critical of something and the critisim being taken on board.

We are turning the corner, that is obvious, but we are not there yet. There is still much work to done. We do not live in a utopia, We will not ever have everyone getting on with everyone else, that would be folly to even consider it. But we are well on the way to a nice balance.

I belive we are facing a dual challenge now. The first is funding and lack thereof. This is a tricky one to resolve. The second is apathy. We are happy to let the same people do the smae things time and time again. Look at the Arbiters list, look at the people organising torunaments, league controllers. It is the same people time and time again.

Here is the wake up call. The "Time to smell the coffee" moment. Many of our Arbiters, Organisers etc are getting older, there is no stampede of helpers there to replace them. As they retire we are going to lose tournaments. We badly need people to step up and learn how to do these roles.

Anyway, enough rambling from me this morning. Hope you all have a pleasant day and I apologise for any spelling mistakes in this, my work computer does not allow me to install Firefox which has a wonderful inbuilt spellchecker Wink


post of the year so far. I wonder though how one combats apathy. a centrally lead initiative to engender enthusiasm would probably fail, but a centrally guided/funded? but locally lead one might succeed.
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