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GN
King
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 415
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 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Thomas wrote: | | Jim Stevenson wrote: | Joe,
leaving aside for a moment any individual preferences, and the means by which the decision was taken in this case, what are the objective arguments against fide rating given that
- it is Scotland's premier club competition attracting many strong players.
- is played at a reasonably slow rate of play.
- is one game a day, played at a weekend.
I thought the general feeling on other threads was to encourage more 'serious'/ fide rated opportunities? |
Fully agree Jim,
We need FIDE rated events.
Sure we could function without any fide rated events in Scotland but if we move towards that situation then comparisons between fide grades of Scottish players becomes less and less meaningful. |
Can you ellaborate on how FIDE rating the Richardson Cup makes a difference to comparisons between FIDE and CS ratings? Perhaps you are anticipating a mass influx of foreign IMs and GMs to represent the Scots clubs in this season's Richardson? Actually, come to think of it, didn't we see some of that at Hamilton last year  |
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JR
King
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 447
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I still fail to see the obsession with FIDE rating events in Scotland. FIDE ratings are irrelevent to the vasty majority of players in Scotland, the only people who should care about their FIDE rating are those who are already an IM/GM and the small handful of players who wish to play outside Scotland.
The argument I have heard against FIDE rating the event is that you do not know who your opponent on the day will be or the colour you will be and cannot prepare as you would normally be able to do in FIDE rated events.
Personally It makes no difference to me if the event is FIDE rated, but if it puts the small number of active titled players that we have off playing then it is a mistake.
I also think there should of been a formal vote at the AGM on the issue, not decided over an irrelevant forum poll. |
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Jim Stevenson
Queen
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Location: The Twilight Zone
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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In the recent thread about the future direction of the Scottish Championship, a sticking point was striking the right balance between providing norm opportunities, and organising a strong, yet cost effective tournament.
To my mind, a far more realistic title for the ambitious player to aim at in the first instance is the FM title. Many knowledgeable observers agree that this title is not beyond the wit of a talented amateur with enough time on their hands, and sufficient dedication / motivation.
The key point is that this title is based on steadily accumulating rating points over time, in order to reach a clear, established level, whereas specific tournament performance norms are often at the mercy of last round pairing possibilities and other mathematical quirks regardless of individual performance. The irony is that players have far less control over achieving the higher titles, than the humble FM title. For that reason alone, if we are aiming to create title opportunities in Scotland, simply fide rating events is a far more economical way to do it than buying- in titled players for specific events.
For this reason I would question Joe's assertion that 'fide ratings are irrelevant to the vast majority, etc.' We shouldn't take an elitist approach to ratings, and more importantly, most chess players do seem to love their ratings (for what little it's worth, I myself am now with the small minority who couldn't care less about them  )
The point about specific preparations for a fide rated game is a valid one, but of course, limited preparation time/ opportunity applies in most other fide rated events too, some of which are two games per day, etc. And with all due respect, fear of losing fide rating points is not the most admirable reason to avoid combat.
I agree that internet forum polls are not the ideal way to make policy decisions, though I always commend elected office bearers being proactive within the limits of their remit.
Last edited by Jim Stevenson on Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:52 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Alan Tate
King
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 377
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I like having the Richardson Fide rated but can't the draw be made in advance? It is normal to know your opponent is beforehand. Hamilton already have a huge edge as it is, in that they have several players around the same rating so can switch as they please. |
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Alan Jelfs
Queen
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| A Muir wrote: | revised entry list
The following teams have entered for the Richardson 2010-11:
....
....
The following teams have entered for the Spens 2010-11:
1 ....
2 East Kilbride
3 ....
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I thought by winning the Spens last year, East Kilbride qualified for this year's Richardson.
What have I missed?
_________________
Chess Club - the first rule of Chess Club is you don't talk about Chess Club. |
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Phil Thomas
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| JR wrote: | I still fail to see the obsession with FIDE rating events in Scotland. FIDE ratings are irrelevent to the vasty majority of players in Scotland, the only people who should care about their FIDE rating are those who are already an IM/GM and the small handful of players who wish to play outside Scotland.
The argument I have heard against FIDE rating the event is that you do not know who your opponent on the day will be or the colour you will be and cannot prepare as you would normally be able to do in FIDE rated events.
Personally It makes no difference to me if the event is FIDE rated, but if it puts the small number of active titled players that we have off playing then it is a mistake.
I also think there should of been a formal vote at the AGM on the issue, not decided over an irrelevant forum poll. |
JR
If you follow the link from the home page you will see a list of 244 players with a FIDE grade.
If you go to the membership list you will see around 630 memberships of Chess Scotland.
So there is a majority of members who don't have a FIDE grade.
However, I would call 244/630 a significant minority.
Surely those people who don't care about FIDE won't object if their games are graded by FIDE in addition to the CS grading system.
Those 244 who might care just a little might be incentivised to persuade their club to enter the Richardson or Spens events.
Can somebody out there tell me if number of entries to both events has gone up or down compared to last year ? |
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JimWebster
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 53
Location: You are in a twisty maze of passageways, all alike...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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244 Fide rated players sounds impressive
but.......
How many of those 244 players are actually active. Once that comes in the calculation the size of the minority reduces significantly. |
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JR
King
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 447
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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What is the pupose of players having a FIDE rating though? Surely it is so that they can enter events in Europe and be compared strength wise with other players.
How many of these 244 Fide rated players are active and actually play outside Scotland in other fide rated events? I suspect it is a tiny minority.
Another problem with FIDE rating, does this mean that the Richardon will now have to operate under the 0 default time rule? |
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Phil Thomas
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| JimWebster wrote: | 244 Fide rated players sounds impressive
but.......
How many of those 244 players are actually active. Once that comes in the calculation the size of the minority reduces significantly. |
Not sure how many of those 244 are active.
Once we find and subtract that number I would contend that that we will arrive at a number greater than the number of players who wish to protect their FIDE grade by not playing.
Oh and before it goes to a pseudovote don't forget to add on those who wish to get their first Fide rating. No need for me to name them I'll keep them anonymous in case there's only one. |
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Phil Thomas
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| JR wrote: | What is the pupose of players having a FIDE rating though? Surely it is so that they can enter events in Europe and be compared strength wise with other players.
How many of these 244 Fide rated players are active and actually play outside Scotland in other fide rated events? I suspect it is a tiny minority.
Another problem with FIDE rating, does this mean that the Richardon will now have to operate under the 0 default time rule? |
The zero minute default time applies to all chess in all federations whether fide rated or not.
Unles the national bodies decides to substitute a different time.
For Scotland it is 30 minutes unless modifed by the competition rules |
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SteveHilton
King
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 443
Location: Greenock
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I found out in Serbia recently that we also set the default time in the World Blind to 30 minutes. I think that seems to be the general attitude. |
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Phil Thomas
King
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| JR wrote: | What is the pupose of players having a FIDE rating though? Surely it is so that they can enter events in Europe and be compared strength wise with other players.
How many of these 244 Fide rated players are active and actually play outside Scotland in other fide rated events? I suspect it is a tiny minority.
Another problem with FIDE rating, does this mean that the Richardon will now have to operate under the 0 default time rule? |
I am told that 109 of those 244 are inactive. How many of those 135 play outside Scotland? - not sure |
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DMB
King
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:48 am Post subject: |
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>>What is the pupose of players having a FIDE rating though? Surely it is so that they can enter events in Europe and be compared strength wise with other players.
Why must it be only of value for players who compete in Europe - or for the IM and GM elite?
FIDE rating now extends to 1201 (and soon 1001) so almost any adult player in Scotland will be able to aspire to a world ranking.
Next year FIDE lists will be produced monthly. Why is the non elite to be denied this pleasure of seeing their world ranking. |
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Phil Thomas
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 758
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Phil Thomas wrote: | []
Can somebody out there tell me if number of entries to both events has gone up or down compared to last year ? |
Answering my own question because introducing numbers into the debate always seems a little controversial
Last year a total of 15 teams played in Richardson/Spens competitions.
This year entries according to this thread reached 17 with a short time to go to the deadline.
Which of these factors would the readers ascribe this rise to ?
(A) The general rise in numbers competing over the board
(B) The new incentive to modify one's FIDE grade or to the chance to obtain a partial FIDE rating. |
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AWIC
King
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 221
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Thomas wrote: | | Phil Thomas wrote: | []
Can somebody out there tell me if number of entries to both events has gone up or down compared to last year ? |
Answering my own question because introducing numbers into the debate always seems a little controversial
Last year a total of 15 teams played in Richardson/Spens competitions.
This year entries according to this thread reached 17 with a short time to go to the deadline.
Which of these factors would the readers ascribe this rise to ?
(A) The general rise in numbers competing over the board
(B) The new incentive to modify one's FIDE grade or to the chance to obtain a partial FIDE rating. |
I agree, using facts to back up an argument always seems a little unsporting - a bit like one's opponent playing good moves.
By my count there are 18 entries this year - Irvine isn't there, but Castlehill, Edinbugh B, Ninewells and Phones are.
I would answer "(C), (D) and (E)"
(C) An enthusiastic individual persuading team mates it might be fun to enter for a change
(D) A club having recaptured some enthusiasm for the game due to winning a few matches
(E) A realisation that entering 2 teams is a viable option.
And possibly (F) - it may only be one match, so no big commitment.
Clearly, I'm just speculating. Some readers may be associated with the "new entries" so may be able to confirm the correct answers. I further suspect many of the old teams have entered because they always enter, without giving it much thought. |
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