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DMB
King
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 267
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 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: Online Grading and Member Services |
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June 2010
CS are investigating ways to enhance the online grading and membership services.
The idea is to allow members to login directly to the grading/membership system. The features that this will bring are as follows:
*** Instant activation of membership and access to the member services upon payment (currently 3-4 day average delay).
*** Non-members would not have access to detailed grading information.
*** Members will have access to the detailed grading information of everyone, including non-members.
*** The statistics available will be dramatically increased to show a multitude of different details, including win/draw/loss pie charts as white/black/all, graph of allegro/fide/classic grades, average opposition when win/lose/draw, best win, best draw, worst loss, longest winning streak, longest drawing streak, longest losing streak, current streak, current club rank, current national rank, current world rank, + more.
*** Members will be able to edit their own details such as password, email, photograph, ICC/Playchess/Chess.com username + more.
*** Members will be able to filter their games to see specific results.
*** Members will be able to see detailed information on the events they have taken part in showing various more stats such as TPR etc.
*** Members will be able to take part in votes online for things such as player of the year rather than have to email or post in the forum.
Thanks to Andrew McHarg of Livingston for adding his input to the CS programming team.
Andy is looking for ideas from players, whether currently a member or non member, of what they would like to see in relation to improvements in online grading/membership.
Please add your thoughts to this thread. |
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William Hulme
Queen
Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The statistics available will be dramatically increased to show a multitude of different details, including win/draw/loss pie charts as white/black/all, graph of allegro/fide/classic grades... |
If we are going into that level of detail - what about an entry to show which league(s) a player has played in 'this season'?
e.g. Using ONLINE GRADE LOOKUP, Filtered by CLUB, we can see GLA after a name to show the player has been active 'this season' in Glasgow League etc.
This could be useful in team selections, checking results etc |
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GN
King
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 415
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| William Hulme wrote: | | Quote: | | The statistics available will be dramatically increased to show a multitude of different details, including win/draw/loss pie charts as white/black/all, graph of allegro/fide/classic grades... |
If we are going into that level of detail - what about an entry to show which league(s) a player has played in 'this season'?
e.g. Using ONLINE GRADE LOOKUP, Filtered by CLUB, we can see GLA after a name to show the player has been active 'this season' in Glasgow League etc.
This could be useful in team selections, checking results etc |
Filtering non-active / irrelevant players is something I often find myself doing manually e.g. start with top 100 list, now filter out the foreign visitors who played one event last year, next filter out the non-dom Scots who really play their chess abroad only, finally remove the players who haven't played this year at all. Done. Now I can see who are the true strongest players active in Scotland. Of course once I've done this I have a much shorter list than the one I started with whereas what I would like to see is still a list with 100 names on it. These are the players that I am interested in!
Another idea. I'd be interested to see players stats with all their overseas games filtered out i.e. how many games did they play here and what was their perfromance in these games. I believe this gives me a much better feel for their true playing strength. If you could see players' ratings with/without the overseas game factor side by side that would be fascinating! |
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GN
King
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 415
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Marks wrote: | | Quote: | | I'd be interested to see players stats with all their overseas games filtered out i.e. how many games did they play here and what was their perfromance in these games. I believe this gives me a much better feel for their true playing strength. |
Fair comment, George, but the 'true' playing strength you seek is itself distorted, given that games against foreign opponents are ignored unless they have a FIDE rating (which is then used). Thus it is possible to play games against strong, non-FIDE-rated opposition, the results of which are currently not reflected in a CS rating.
IMO, the way to approach a figure showing 'true playing strength' is to find a way to incorporate all results, a time-consuming and not straigthforward matter, given inconsistencies in national rating set-ups (USCF!).
If I had to make one suggestion, this would be it. It's no joke to face, say, a player of candidate master strength from one of the Stans only to find that, in CS terms, it's a non-game because the guy lacked a FIDE rating.
In similar vein, if CS events use FIDE ratings, then I submit that FIDE figures should be used for domestic rating purposes re those events. There must be a way to tweak the figures for players so affected. |
I haven't studied it but my impression is that players who play overseas a lot have ratings that go up. Of course this may be because they are motivated to improve - hence why they are playing abroad - and therefore they are getting better. Alternatively it may be because these results are being measured against FIDE ratings which is a system where rating inflation is a known problem (just today I see this is discussed at length @ http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6401).
Either way, if someone has a 2200 rating from games played exclusively against players I know in Scotland then I have a fair idea whereI stand. Whereas, for example, Paul Robert's rise this year largely from overseas events is difficult to interpret. Has he really got so much better? Who knows? So, being able to strip out these overseas results so I could see with / without would make the rating system more useful for me personally. Hey - they did ask right?! |
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Friseal
Bishop
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Bonhill, Alexandria
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Online Grading and Member Services |
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| DMB wrote: | June 2010
*** The statistics available will be dramatically increased to show a multitude of different details, including ... longest winning streak, longest drawing streak, longest losing streak, current streak ... + more.
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For this to work, every game submitted would have to be timestamped - can the grading system be set-up to cope with this?
It certainly would be a considerable improvement to sort ones games in order of playing rather than by event completion date. I can see that the change required for team matches / Swiss events would be straightforward, but All-Play-All events may be a bit more tricky.
_________________
If I have not seen as far as others it's because giants were standing on my shoulders. |
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AMcHarg
King
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 623
Location: Livingston, Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Online Grading and Member Services |
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| Friseal wrote: |
For this to work, every game submitted would have to be timestamped - can the grading system be set-up to cope with this?
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I think so. In events such as congresses it's very easy to establish the dates of particular games based on the round number and the known tournament weekend date. For events such as leagues etc the captain returnining the scoresheet applies a date to it which would allow for dates to be applied to games by the Area Grader. What other events can you think of where this might be difficult to apply?  |
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JimWebster
Rook
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 53
Location: You are in a twisty maze of passageways, all alike...
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It certainly would be a considerable improvement to sort ones games in order of playing rather than by event completion date.
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How would this work with internal club tournaments which can be played over the whole season? Possibly means uploads at more regular intervals rather than at the tournament completion/season end.
For example our internal club tournaments run from Sept - June each year to allow players greater flexibility and allowing for matches, holidays, business trips etc. |
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AMcHarg
King
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 623
Location: Livingston, Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| JimWebster wrote: | | Quote: | It certainly would be a considerable improvement to sort ones games in order of playing rather than by event completion date.
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How would this work with internal club tournaments which can be played over the whole season? Possibly means uploads at more regular intervals rather than at the tournament completion/season end.
For example our internal club tournaments run from Sept - June each year to allow players greater flexibility and allowing for matches, holidays, business trips etc. |
Interesting point. I guess we will just have to rely on people supply the information honestly to get an accurate picture of what's going on. I suspect there will very likely be some errors as a result of false reporting but I am pretty sure they will be so few that the actual picture presented will be a fairly reliable one. You could run an event between Sept-June and during that event still record when matches were played so that when you were submitting the results then the dates of all matches were also submitted.
We are going to be working on a new grading system, not just a revamp of the output of the current system so all of these things will be taken into consideration.  |
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AMcHarg
King
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 623
Location: Livingston, Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| GN wrote: | | Ian Marks wrote: | | Quote: | | I'd be interested to see players stats with all their overseas games filtered out i.e. how many games did they play here and what was their perfromance in these games. I believe this gives me a much better feel for their true playing strength. |
Fair comment, George, but the 'true' playing strength you seek is itself distorted, given that games against foreign opponents are ignored unless they have a FIDE rating (which is then used). Thus it is possible to play games against strong, non-FIDE-rated opposition, the results of which are currently not reflected in a CS rating.
IMO, the way to approach a figure showing 'true playing strength' is to find a way to incorporate all results, a time-consuming and not straigthforward matter, given inconsistencies in national rating set-ups (USCF!).
If I had to make one suggestion, this would be it. It's no joke to face, say, a player of candidate master strength from one of the Stans only to find that, in CS terms, it's a non-game because the guy lacked a FIDE rating.
In similar vein, if CS events use FIDE ratings, then I submit that FIDE figures should be used for domestic rating purposes re those events. There must be a way to tweak the figures for players so affected. |
I haven't studied it but my impression is that players who play overseas a lot have ratings that go up. Of course this may be because they are motivated to improve - hence why they are playing abroad - and therefore they are getting better. Alternatively it may be because these results are being measured against FIDE ratings which is a system where rating inflation is a known problem (just today I see this is discussed at length @ http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=6401).
Either way, if someone has a 2200 rating from games played exclusively against players I know in Scotland then I have a fair idea whereI stand. Whereas, for example, Paul Robert's rise this year largely from overseas events is difficult to interpret. Has he really got so much better? Who knows? So, being able to strip out these overseas results so I could see with / without would make the rating system more useful for me personally. Hey - they did ask right?! |
This is an interesting idea, and certainly possible. We could differentiate between TPR and do grading calcs for players for games played exclusively in Scotland for the purposes of reporting only while their actual official grade, including games played outside Scotland where applicable, could be un-touched.
Is this what you mean or have I picked up wrongly? |
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JR
King
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 447
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:29 am Post subject: |
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I agree with GN I would like to see a list of top active Scottish players! Why are the foreign or English players included on the list? I suggested this a long time ago for an option to see only the Scottish players.
An option to see performance from games abroad is also a good idea. It is much easier to gain rating points by playing abroad as players in Europe/England always have much higher ratings than their actual strength compared to an equivalent Scottish player. I have always though that an English 2200 is probably about 2100 Scottish strength. Same as Europe there are a lot of vastly over-rated titled players!
These improvements to the grading system sound really good and I would definately consider paying membership fee for them. |
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Friseal
Bishop
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Bonhill, Alexandria
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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For some (generally more prestigious) events volunteers go to the effort of producing PGN files which can then be downloaded from the CS website. If the Grading system is being rebuilt rather than revamped, is it feasible to have the facility to include a pgn for each game (where available).
If a CS member brings up a player's details, there could be a flag or hyperlink against each game that has a gamescore submitted, and clicking this could open the game in a pgn reader?
I wouldn't imagine this would cause much trouble for graders if the event can be submitted for grading and then pgn pasted against each game as they become available.
Even for League games - there are some players who enter their every game into Fritz or so, and as an Area Grader I would be happy to copy and paste from emails into the Grading System, perhaps with a caveat that the games are as submitted by players/event organisers, and any errors are not the Graders' or CS fault?
Surely, if feasible, this would provide encouragement for a few more players to take up membership?
_________________
If I have not seen as far as others it's because giants were standing on my shoulders. |
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AMcHarg
King
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 623
Location: Livingston, Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Friseal wrote: | For some (generally more prestigious) events volunteers go to the effort of producing PGN files which can then be downloaded from the CS website. If the Grading system is being rebuilt rather than revamped, is it feasible to have the facility to include a pgn for each game (where available).
If a CS member brings up a player's details, there could be a flag or hyperlink against each game that has a gamescore submitted, and clicking this could open the game in a pgn reader?
I wouldn't imagine this would cause much trouble for graders if the event can be submitted for grading and then pgn pasted against each game as they become available.
Even for League games - there are some players who enter their every game into Fritz or so, and as an Area Grader I would be happy to copy and paste from emails into the Grading System, perhaps with a caveat that the games are as submitted by players/event organisers, and any errors are not the Graders' or CS fault?
Surely, if feasible, this would provide encouragement for a few more players to take up membership? |
We had thought about this too as it's a very good idea and I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to implement.
Thanks
A |
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Gordon Rattray
Knight
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Friseal wrote: | | as an Area Grader I would be happy to copy and paste from emails into the Grading System, perhaps with a caveat that the games are as submitted by players/event organisers, and any errors are not the Graders' or CS fault? |
If we move to having user accounts, the proposal would be that people login and submit games directly (not via an area grader) and we highlight who submitted the games. We want to avoid e-mailing and copy n’ paste. |
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Mike Scott
King
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 676
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to be able to see a player's grading performance as a function of :-
1. opponents grade - would be good to be able to specify specific grading ranges
2. Time
3. Clock time - At most 3 groups - total time per player < 60 mins (junior main list), 60 - 90mins and >90mins.
These would be useful when making selection decisions for juniors. Also it would be useful to be able to sort players on an age criterian based on a date other than that used by CS for the J designation. |
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AMcHarg
King
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 623
Location: Livingston, Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Scott wrote: | I would like to be able to see a player's grading performance as a function of :-
1. opponents grade - would be good to be able to specify specific grading ranges
2. Time
3. Clock time - At most 3 groups - total time per player <60>90mins.
These would be useful when making selection decisions for juniors. Also it would be useful to be able to sort players on an age criterian based on a date other than that used by CS for the J designation. |
1. Do you mean that you would want to select opponents played between the grades of x and y and then see your subsequent TPR against those players specifically?
2. Time? Do you mean by how well a player manages their time or? Don't think that would work if that's what you mean because most players don't record their time at each move?
3. Filter games by time control used?
This raises as interesting idea in general of showing a TPR of a specifically filtered selection. Since TPR can be calculated very quickly from a specific set of results this should be fairly easy to achieve.
A |
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