Chess Scotland Noticeboard

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Banded Tournaments

It's the same old faces that are winning the Majors year in year out.

I don't have to name them, we all know who they are.

(check the records for the past 10 years).

It is absurd to think these players have never gotten any better.

Is it not about time we introduced Banded Tournaments.

Banded Tournaments in a Nutshell:

"If you win an under 1800 tournament you cannot play in another
under 1800 tournament irrespective of your current grade.
You must enter the next higher class or you will be moved into that
higher class."

You can change 1800 to 1600, 1700, 1900 or 2000 or what ever the
band of the tournament that has been won.

Many other countries, including the USA use the banded tournament
system and it works.

Or are we going to let this farce continue and ignore it?

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

Geoff, Much as I respect your views, I feel if your proposal was put into practice it would decimate the numbers of players entering tournament chess in Scotland. Take myself for example, I managed to win two u1600 majors in the last year (Hawick and Perth) but god knows when I managed to win one before then. I had stopped playing for ten years or so and only started playing again in the last two or three years when encouraged by my friends at Greenwood as they were short of players and would default boards anyway. I quickly realised how much I had missed and above all enjoyed playing both at league level and in tournaments. I am 49, and clearly not getting much better (most of my opponents already know this!) as I have limitations to the quality and standard of my game. Last year a group of us played in a wonderful u2000 tournament in Benidorm which we all thoroughly enjoyed. Did I have any chance of winning?...not a hope! I played in it because I enjoyed the tourney and having a great time with my friends, surely this is the main reason that the vast majority of us play tournaments, for the social enjoyment of a pastime(or sport!) we love. If your suggestion became reality I am sure that many players would become so disillusioned at being constantly duffed up at levels that are beyond them they may give up tournament play altogether.

Robin

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Banded Tournaments

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject:

Hi Robin.

You make a good point.

I think the powers that be would like to introduce something like
banded tournaments but are only to glad to accept entries.

Fair Enough.

Banded tournaments are aimed at 'sand-baggers' players who
shed grading points in order to be able to enter and win tournaments
in which they clearly out-class their opponets.

Some of the tournaments in the USA have tremendous prize money
for under 1700 players. $4,000 I was quoted.
So there you can see the need for such a rule.

Here prize money is a lot less but it would be nice to see everyone
occasionally getting a piece of the pie.

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject:

Hi Graeme.

I am rearching how long the ban last in the USA.

It's not for a season. I think it's 5 years.

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject:

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Banded Tournaments

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 1386

johnmcbride · Queen Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 94

I am someone who falls into this catchall won tournament rubbish. High entry fees, travel and accommodation costs, as compared to low prizes. Results in tournament chess being a major expense. So I do not play chess to win money, I do it because I want to and I don't win that many.

I have come across people (about 4 in total during the last 20 years) who lose games/grading points to win money. This was in England a number of years ago and none are playing anymore. In Scotland we have a number of players in each of the sections that are fairly close to each other in playing strength. Some win slightly more than others, but no one cleans up and the prize list usually changes from tournament to tournament. All are competitive, do not throw games and are about the level of their grades.

People who see me play often, know that while I do not worry too much about losing, but I am competitive and always try to play well. My grade is roughly right, as it is based on a high number of games each season. Dropping grading points is only really possible if you are playing less than 40 games a season, probably a lot less than that.

My playing ability can also vary from game to game, something that I have never been able to iron out. Like most people, I do not enjoy going through a bad patch. Should I be forced to play in an open when I am playing badly? Even worse in my mind, should the better players in the open be forced to suffer my rubbish play when I am playing badly?

Arbiters and players are not daft either. Cheaters quickly gain a reputation for grade manipulation.

If there were lots tournaments with large prizes, then the incentive to cheat would be greater and they would soon come out of the woodwork. As it is, the prizes are poor and are considered by many just to be the icing on the cake of a good weekend.

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Banded Tournaments

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sandbaggers?

AMcHarg · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject:

Not many people deliberately lose games to lower their grade so they can play in eg the Minor of a tournament. The prize money is not really enough of an incentive. As an example I would rather get 2 points in an Open than win a Minor with eg 4/5, with respect to the guys in the Minors.

Considering the above it's fair the way it is as grade removes any real ambiguity of a person's playing strength.

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject:

Hi.

Glad to see some of you don't think this is worth bringing up
and it is not a problem.

Anyway I have had a reply from the USA.

They take banded tournaments very seriously.

It works thus.

When your grade is published it has two grades.

Your normal and your banded grade. (say 1600 normal and 1500 banded)

You cannot play in a tournament rated lower than your baned grade.

The banded grade may increase but it never goes any lower.
If you are banded from a 1600 tourney then it is forever.

So it's not a case of winning once and not being allowed to play again.

It goes like this.

you are 1790 and enter an under 1800 tournament.

If you win that tournament then your grade has increased to say 1860.

You sandbag off 100 points by losing all your games in your club
championship games or waiting till a league result is beyond doubt
and lose on purpose.

However the system has noted you have a high of 1860 so it makes your
banded grade 1800.

You so are sitting there with an under 1800 grade but not allowed to play
in a an u-1800 tournament because you can and have played to a
higher level than that.

Well that's how it works.

But there is no problem right?

Would it not be funny if I unearthed players who have been winning
money at the same majors again and again and again since 1989.

What temprature is the sand you have stuck your heads into?
It looks very comfortable.

johnmcbride · Queen Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 94

Due to the vast geographical nature of the USA, tournaments are fewer and further apart. It is even worse than going to Torquay to play at the British.

Players often only get to play in a small number if any tournaments. As a result the tournaments can be special events and the bigger ones attract very large entries. A large entry translates into much better prize money. Therefore, the need to protect against people cheating is required. I cannot think of anyone who would want to throw games to earn the odd £100 or so, minus costs that would add up to nearly or more than that.

The small numbers of tournaments means only a few people a year are moved up to a higher section. With the number of tournaments in this country, it would not be long before the open and challengers were full of 1200 graded players. The minors and majors would soon run out of players and only people who learned to play last week could get into them. However, in reality tournaments would fail, as the lower graded players will not fancy a 0/5 weekend and the higher graded players would get tired of wasting a weekend playing only one or two players with similar, or higher grades.

Scotland and the rest of the UK have a different culture, many smaller tournaments and low prize money. The smaller geographical area makes it easier to run many more tournaments.