Chess Scotland Noticeboard

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 404 Location: Edinburgh

wat if a sighted player forgets to bring their score sheet?

Graeme Forbes · Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject:

Iain Hope · Pawn Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 4

I would like to answer the points raised above on behalf of Chess Edinburgh.
Our present rule is based on a suggestion from the club of the player concerned with their consent. It has been in place for a couple of years. The player has been playing league chess for many years keeping their own score but was finding it more and more time consuming before asking for assistance. The playing time is 2 hours 50 minutes (85 min +20). There is no scope to increase this.
The 10 minute deduction was suggested and agreed by the club of the player with his agreement. It was based on the observations of an Edinburgh Chess Council member who is a member of the same club as the player concerned.
The use of a dictaphone and having a third party record the moves was suggested but the player preferred not to use the dictaphone and finding somebody to record the moves for every league match would be problematic especially away fixtures.

Iain Hope
League Secretary
Chess Edinburgh

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

I have been asked to make my position clear on this topic,
Both players must start with equal time on the clock, There is no justification for a player to be deducted time on account of their visual impairment.
Donald's suggestion about extra time for both players is a good one and is one that is line with equality on the clock for both players.

Any suggestion of time penalties is unacceptable if it leave a player with a disadvantage at the start of the game.

Andy McCulloch · King Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 166

Steve I understand where you are coming from, but do not agree with your conclusion. I don't think that it takes much time to record moves, perhaps 3 or 4 seconds for each move, less for your own moves but more, perhaps much more for your opponents moves, especially if it is totally unexpected. This would mean that at Glasgow League time controls the sighted player would have used some 30 x 3 x 2 = 180 seconds to simply record the moves as opposed to the visually handicapped player's 0 seconds.

To me this implies that the visually impaired player gains an advantage of some 3 minutes, which is quite considerable in the 15 minute rapidplay finish.

The system you want gives the visually impaired player an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

admin · Site Admin Joined: 09 Jan 2007 Posts: 730

Andy,

I have to disagree. Remember that the sighted player has the advantage of being able to see the board, as opposed to the non-sighted plater who has to feel over his entire board for the position.

With 5 minutes left to play, you should not be recording anyway so there is no penalty during the time scramble.

At the congress at the weekend, we had 2 non-sighted players, neither was given a time penalty (although I joked to Steve that I was going to take 10 mins off his clock!). None of the opponents were disadvantaged and I had no complaints from the players about it.

I understand that Chess Edinburgh came to this decision after consultation with both the player and his captain, however that does not make it right or correct in my view. I have to take Steve's side on this one. This is something that they need to look at and agree and I was pleased to see Iain posting on the matter to give their side to it. I would like to suggest to Chess Edinburgh that if they have concerns about this rule, or indeed, anyone else who has concerns of this nature, that they could contact the Chess Scotland Disability Officer, Chris Hampton whom would give them the appropriate advice

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

Andy,
What is wrong about equality of time. I do not understand how you come to the conclusion that a visually impaired player has an advatage. In my own experience as a visually impaired chessplayer, the faster the time control, an advantage if any is likely to lie with the ablebodied player. Why should a visually impaired player be punished if for some reason he/she is unable to take a score of the game down. I again repeat that there has to be equality of time at the start of the game.
Does an ablebodied player need a time advantage to play a visually impaired player? I don't think so.

If what you suggest were adopted then the immediate consequence of such a ruling would put extra pressure on the visually impaired player's team mates at the the start of a match then the match is not an equal one.

If a score of the game is not kept by the visually impaired player he cannot claim for things such as 3 fold repetition. There is already an inbuilt advantage to the player who keeps an up to date score of the game should a dispute arise.

Chess is a great way of integrating the blind into society dont upset that

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 404 Location: Edinburgh

Personally I would not object (nor think to do so) to equal time (and equally I wouldn't dream of denying a players claim for repetition just because they did not score in these circumstances - that would not be sporting or honourable) however Steve is not correct to say

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

Mike,
you cannot justify a time penalty against a visually impaired player if for some reason they cannot take a score of the game

Ian McLachlan · Bishop Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Lanark

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

Ian,
Whatever you wish to call it, it is still a time penalty in my view. You have to have a reference to visually impaired because there are rules within FIDE about play with the visually impaired

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 404 Location: Edinburgh

Steve,
You are missing the point.

By not scoring a player (whether sighted or not) has more (all be it in my view marginally) playing time. Yes or no?

What if you have two visually impaired players playing each other - one scores, the other does not. If you agree that it takes some time to score then the one scoring will have less thinking time than the one that does not. Is that fair?

If visually impaired players need extra time when playing fully sighted players then make that case and suggest how much time is required and on what basis. But that is a seperate issue from whether they should get more time because they are unable to score.

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

"You are missing the point.

By not scoring a player (whether sighted or not) has more (all be it in my view marginally) playing time. Yes or no?

What if you have two visually impaired players playing each other - one scores, the other does not. If you agree that it takes some time to score then the one scoring will have less thinking time than the one that does not. Is that fair?

If visually impaired players need extra time when playing fully sighted players then make that case and suggest how much time is required and on what basis. But that is a seperate issue from whether they should get more time because they are unable to score."

Mike,
I have made myself abundantly clear on this issue. I have stated quite clearly that there must equal time at the start of the game.
I do not carry a stopwatch to measure the amount of time taken to write down a move, so I cannot answer your question.
What is wrong with equality of time at the start of the game? Does an ablebodied player need extra time to beat a Visually Impaired player or vice versa. All I have said is that both players should start with the same time there are safeguards in the rules of play about non taking of moves.
There maybe reason why a visuall impaired player may not be able to take down moves. All that is needed is a common sense approach and a set of guidelines from CS on this matter.

I repeat that if a visually impaired player uses a regular board then he is not covered by the rules of play with players who are blind or visually handicapped

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 272 Location: Greenock

I would also add that if two visually impaired players played in a match then the moves strictly speaking whould be announced in German as it is the International language of braille chess.
That rule is only ever enforced for international events but in theory can be us ed for local events. A lot of people still use descriptive notation nowadays in tournament games, but are they punished? The answer is no for there is a common sense approach to these things, as Andy H has said previously

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 404 Location: Edinburgh

Steve,