Chess Scotland Noticeboard

GN · King Joined: 30 Mar 2007 Posts: 415

Please excuse the intrusion, I am jumping into this junior thread because it seems, as is often the case, that the most passionate debate is happening here. So, as an outsider, I have a question for all: do we have any titled players involved in any regular training programmes for juniors at the moment? If we do then then great. If we do not then that is a serious deficiency in my opinion and I think spending some money on this rather than sending multitudes of kids off to international events would be a better way to enable these kids to realise their potential.

Can I also add that despite the various shockers that Mr Chandler has drawn all our attention to, I think the level of top juniors at present is at least as good, if not better, than anything I have observed in past 10 years. In particular I think a few will almost certainly reach IM status which is something noone has achieved for quite a few years now. So...it can't be all bad!

SteveHilton · King Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 443 Location: Greenock

I understood that Ian Mcdonald was playing in these championships, but his name was not up on the list.

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject:

Hi George

Titled players do not necessarily make the best teachers/coaches.

The current team are doing fine.

'Mr Chandler' has rattled their cage that's all.

Phil Thomas · King Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 758

Phil Thomas · King Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 758

Geoff Chandler · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject:

Hi

Saw David tonight at the Edin I training session.

(no boxes just OTB study) Wink

Everything fine with him, he has his own training program in mind and I
am going to do my little bit to help.

I've already had a few emails requesting stuff and from a few
adults as well.

Good. Sleeves rolled up. Let's get dirty.

Phil Thomas · King Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 758

Geoff,

So ,many active threads at the moment. You've stirred up so much dust that there could be a danger of some people choking on it. Well done Geoff that was needed. I basically agree with about the value of OTB practice being better than talking to Silicon monsters. Extending your theme ........ OTB practice is not effective when you have a group of youngsters shouting out stalling one stalling 2 stalling 3 ......in a crowded analysis room while strong players struggle to hear themselves think. Enough about the British Championship you'll be glad to hear that noisy doubles did not happen during Euroyouth.

Everyone except Geoff,
Reference various other threads you should bear in mind that for the big international events in general............

The U18 and U16 players have in general been before. They know the score and take the decision as to whether to play or not.Their parents generally don't attend

Under 12 players frequently have not been before. The parents taken the decision on participation - effectively they advice from the selectors. Parents tend to attend the event perhaps treating it as part of the family's summer holidays - easy to do in Italy in early September.

The U14 players are in transition between the two groups listed above.

So lets try to intrduce some numbers into the debate instead of some charged emotional words stressing a failed expedition

Lets look at the events played since Euroyouth by the returning U12 players

I see the Lothians allegro only
Kiron gradev -21 performance
Zak Grade plus +386 performance
Fergus Grade +595 performance

Disappointing result for Kiron but during final preparations for Euroyouth he played at Marymass and scored Grade + 234

So based upon that evidence my calculator* tells me we're running at grade plus 319 so far.

Chances are the returning U12 girls see bigger impact upon their grade than the returning U 12 boys.

*Poetic licence Geoff (I know you're reading this bit) I used pen and paper instead of the silicon monster in my calculator.

Angus McDonald · King Joined: 08 Apr 2009 Posts: 162

A few reflections on recent threads.

1. Is there a possibility that older juniors/young adults could create their own organisation? CS could support it's formation and the organisation could affiliate to CS. The purpose would be to continue to create opportunities for older juniors/young adults to participate in big events as groups together. The age band could be 18 to 25 or possibly even 30. They could continue their interest in Chess, have some fun together and maintain frienships without CS being held responsible!! Smile

Ofcourse that is and can be done on an informal basis but making it formal would add strength to the idea and give continuity and support the whole of Chess in Scotland.
There are a lot of very strong older juniors/young adults who I think are very capable of setting up such an organisation. It could be done similar to University Sports Club organisation and perhaps Universities in Scotland would support it?

2. Those who got the Chess bug do care passionately about it. That's good and harnessing that correctly will I believe bring success. Chess shouldn't be something other countries do well. It can be something Scotland does well. Scotland actually has a heritage on the intellectual side which is one of the greatest in the world per head of population. Ultimately our top players GMs IMs etc can bring glory to themselves and to the nation and Chess in Scotland will have an increasing profile which I think it merits.

3. Pinpointing mistakes/failures is OK but praise, recognition and approval of achievement should be given more attention because in my opinion believing in yourself and having confidence is very important. Rectifying mistakes though will help confidence but higher attention should be given to excellent play as this shows the potential that can be aspired to. I guess Geoff is already working on a CC of junior brilliancies:-) In fairness he's done quite a few in the past.

regards,
Angus

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 676 Location: Edinburgh

Phil,
I think your use of grading statistics is questionable as one would always expect such increases from improving juniors. The data has bias since those that went are also among the best juniors who probably will tend to improve the most anyway.

Thats NOT the same as saying going to the Euros/Worlds does not have some benefit that is shown in grade, indeed as I mentioned to you at the Lothians, Leora has certainly appeared to have made a step forward in attitude that I think can for sure be attributed to the Euros. This will no doubt lead to her to add grading points.

I think it would take a more formal analysis to determine whether there has been a measurable grading benefit for those who have been to these events over the last few years. There are after all players that make significant improvements without having gone to one of these events.

I suspect that the biggest correlation is between grade increase and hard work!

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 676 Location: Edinburgh

Phil Thomas · King Joined: 26 Mar 2007 Posts: 758

A Muir · King Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 489 Location: Dumbarton

Any juniors that we send abroad should provide "value for money" and I would prefer funds to be spent on players who are likely to score more than 50%.
Remember that junior chess is competing with international funds for GMs etc who wish money for Olympiads & Europeans etc and they are trying to make a living from the game. It is likely Olympiad funds may be cut to subsidise the junior pot

Angus McDonald · King Joined: 08 Apr 2009 Posts: 162

There is free accomodation for each 1st selection at under 8 boys and girls right through to under 18 boys and girls. There is an admin charge to take up this place of I think 100 Euro. Then there is also entry fee of I think also 100 Euro. After that there are flight fees and spending money.
The accomodation subsidy for the first choices is usually about £500 and if you do well on flights first choice may be able to play for as little as £700. Chess Scotland usually help to about £200. So total cost to play is usually around £1200. The hosting federation gives subsidy for 1st choice of around £500 each. Chess Scotland usually give around £200 towards costs (about 1/6th of costs) and parents/child's savings will pay the remaining £500. If you are 2nd choice then you may have to pay the full whack or Chess Scotland may give £200 towards costs by paying the entry fee and perhaps admin fee for accomodation. Most 2nd choices end up having to pay around £1000 to play. The idea that Chess Scotland are paying out vast sums in subsidising the juniors playing is incorrect. But supporting the juniors in any Sport/International game of prestige/Wholesome pursuit, Is worthwhile in my narrow and biased opinion.
regards,
Angus

Mike Scott · King Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 676 Location: Edinburgh

Angus,
Why is there this tendancy to pretend that some-one says ABC and then prove that ABC is wrong? I don't recall anyone saying that CS spends 'vast sums'. What has been argued is that what is being spent may be better targeted.

If one factors in how much the parents pay in total to attend it is not a trivial sum of money and if some of that was spent instead on running say residential training or organising more FIDE events at home we might achieve more in the long term.

Its not, at least in my mind, a debate about whether to spend the money on juniors or not, rather how best to spend it so that we end up with the best players possible. We have been sending our best players to these events for a number of years yet where are the results that suggest that the money has been well spent?

robin moore · King Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 164

Would someone please confirm the figures Angus has quoted and clarify if these figures apply to all major overseas junior events?